Have you spent so much time thinking through career choices that you could make but ended up making no decision at all? Sounds familiar? This is called analysis paralysis, which is very common among perfectionists.

In this episode, one of our PhDCS team members, Santoshi Devadas, had the pleasure to interview Isabeau Iqbal who helps ambitious perfectionists in higher education. She guides them to overcome analysis paralysis and move forward with their goals. 

Isabeau is a certified career and life coach with more than 20 years of experience supporting academics and faculty members in their professional growth.  In addition to her career services, she also has her YouTube channel where she regularly shares tips and tricks with her audience. 

During the interview, Isabeau provides us with approaches to network efficiently, job searching strategies, and ways to better know your values. She also shares the importance of knowing your strengths. Check out the episode resource section to find the links to the strengths assessments mentioned.

In the end, Isabeau left three main takeaway messages:

• Take the initiative!

• Network!

• Get to know your values and strengths!

…” these seem quick tips but they require time investment from your side”... said Isabeau.

If you want to learn more about ways of overcoming your indecisiveness and taking the next step in your career, this episode is for you!

Enjoy it!

PhD Career Stories is now on major social media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our Website.

Episode resources:

• Free - VIA Character Strengths Survey: https://www.viacharacter.org/ 

• Free at present - Standout by Marcus Buckingham: https://www.marcusbuckingham.com/ 

• Free - High5: https://high5test.com/ 

• Paid - CliftonStrengths Assessment: https://www.gallup.com/cliftonstrengths/en/252137/home.aspx

  ---

TRANSCRIPT

Santoshi: Hello everyone! Welcome to another episode of PhD Career Stories. I'm your host, Santoshi Devadas. And today, our guest is a career coach who has a PhD in Education. And she coaches ambitious perfectionists in higher education. She's rated as one among the top 21 coaches in Vancouver 2021. She also has her own YouTube channel and her blog, where she shares career strategies, including tips for leveraging perfectionism and using gentle productivity. Today, she's here with us to share more of her tips and tricks. So let's welcome Isabeau Iqbal.

Isabeau: Thank you.

Santoshi: Okay, Isabeau. So really thank you so much for giving us this time and sharing your tips and tricks with us and our listeners. I was actually going through your website and what was very interesting for me, was that I found that you write that you help your clients to move beyond analysis paralysis and make career decisions that feel right. And as a PhD student myself, I totally understand what this means. This analysis paralysis. So what do you think a PhD candidate should do who is unsure about the next career steps? What do you think they should do?

Isabeau: Yeah, it's such a complicated question and process. And so when I am working with people who are stuck in analysis paralysis and as you mentioned, I work with ambitious perfectionists. So this analysis paralysis is a frequent phenomenon. So in terms of PhD candidates, I would recommend a number of things. One is that you really get to know your strengths, and there are various ways to do that. And the reason this is so important is around this piece of self-aware fairness, because one thing you might hear me say a number of times is that we cannot rely on external people to be, you know, pointing out your strengths or giving us praise. And so we need to learn how to do that ourselves. And there's a number of tools to be able to gain self-awareness of your strengths. And the reason that's so important is because then you want to align your decision making with your strengths. So that's the piece around decision making. The other thing that I always recommend is to get to know your values, because whenever you feel off, it's often because there is that lack of alignment between your stated values and your actions. And so getting to know your values and really finding out what's important to you will also help with this reflective process and decision making and moving out of that feeling of stuckness. There's a few more things that I recommend, and one is that our human brain, I don't know why, we often - when we're thinking about options - we often might come up with two options. And then suddenly we're into this black and white thinking. And neither option A nor option B feels good. But usually there are so many more options. And so for a PhD candidate who is stuck in analysis paralysis, being able to generate multiple options and you know, you are all super intelligent, creative people. And so it might need a little push to come up with additional options and thinking about that. So those are a few, but I have a few more strategies if you want me to go on.

Santoshi: Yeah, I mean, I'm really interested in it because you said that we should be really aware of your values. So I mean, you can also share the other tips that you have, but maybe we can also touch upon: how important are these values? I mean, why should one have values and why should that be really important in your decision factor for your career step?

Isabeau: Yeah. So we all have values, whether we can utter words that represent the values, but we all have values that guide much of what we do. And so it's taking a bit of time to think and reflect and see, okay, what are my values? And I'll give you a really concrete example. So when I did my PhD, I had two very young children, and I also was and still am in a relationship. And so my values are very much around family and relationships. And so knowing that, for example, really helped me during my PhD because I didn't want to end up in a divorce. We know that I don't have the numbers, but we know that a lot of PhDs end up in relationships that are broken. And I wanted to feel good about myself as a mother. And so, knowing those values, for example, really, really helped me when I was trying to make decisions about where to put my time, how to approach my Ph.D., what to say yes to, what to say no to. So that's an example.

Santoshi: So I'm asking this because it kind of makes me reflect on something. So if you are looking for a job or for your PhD position. So you mean that we should also look if the values align with the values of the company or the institute?

Isabeau: That's a great question. In my experience, the stated values of a company are often stuck on a wall somewhere or on a website. But how they actually play out may or may not reflect those values. If you have someone on the inside of the company or the organization, you're able to get a sense of what it's. Maybe you are able to do an internship there or some sort of practicum and you get a sense of the values. Then yes, if it feels like a good fit in what you see actually happening, then I would say that's a really, really important component in to consider when you're in your job search or you know, in that stage, but definitely not relying on what's stated, because I think there are too many instances where those are pretty words and may not actually play out that way.

Santoshi: But that is really important, you know, to know if you should just go on the face value of the company or the institute. But I think you have touched upon so many different points, such as insider information, or networking events. Yeah, but I think we will cover this during this whole podcast, but I mean, already from this one question, I'm very impressed that we have so many other topics that we can touch on.

Isabeau: Yeah, I think I know we'll probably get to this later, but I am a huge proponent of networking and using your network.

Santoshi: Yeah, I think it is really important. I mean, it has always been important, but I think in this digital world nowadays, I think it has become very, very important.

Isabeau: Yeah. And perhaps easier.

Santoshi: Yes. Also that that is so true. That has become so easier. I mean, I cannot think of days how people used to network without having LinkedIn, without having email. I mean, I don't know how that works.

Isabeau: We would go to in-person functions and grow that known trust and like factor in-person. Yes.

Santoshi: Because I asked you this question about analysis paralysis, this puts me into another question. I mean, in a way, it's also already said, it's paralysis. So I know that there are many PhD candidates who pursued their PhD because they were passionate about doing it, only then they realized “Oh, yeah, maybe this is not for me.” So it's not just about the PhD, but also this happens with every career decision, every decision that you make, that you're always afraid if you're going to make the wrong decision. What tips would you suggest to someone who has this feeling of making a wrong decision or having already made a wrong career decision?

Isabeau: Yeah. It can be really frightening to feel either the pressure that you put on yourself that you might make the wrong decision, or, as you said, perhaps you are in a position and feeling that you have done that already. And, you know, again, our mind sometimes catastrophizes. Right. Like, we take it as something that is, you know, the end of the world, perhaps not that quite that extreme, but I have definitely seen that kind of thing happen. So it's perfectly normal that you'd feel that way first, first of all. The thing that I find really helpful to remember is that there are so few decisions that are truly irrevocable, right? Perhaps having children that that's one, and otherwise very, very few decisions cannot be changed. It might involve a lot of, you know, financial and emotional and other kinds of investments to change.

There's often, especially with ambitious perfectionists, a feeling of shame that can go with the reluctance that comes with making a change, because there's shame associated with it. And this is where it's helpful to get support. 

Santoshi: Yeah, I think I think it is really important when you say to get out of this feeling of, you know, we are stuck or making this wrong decision. I think there are, as you said, there are only very few things that you cannot change.

Isabeau: Yeah. Because if you choose to stay stuck in that cycle of shame, and I've made a mistake andI'm stuck, it really keeps you from taking action. You just bury yourself further, and back to your point about analysis paralysis. And so it's much more helpful to say, okay, I'm going to look at this straight on. Where can I course correct? What are some things that I can do differently? And maybe it's just, you know, a small change, a small change at a time. But things that will give you that sense, that, well, not just give you the sense will actually move you towards something else. 

Santoshi: I mean, when you say course correction, I'm already thinking that to accept and to acknowledge the fact that you made the wrong decision, already is a very big step.

Isabeau: Yeah. And even the word “wrong”, you know, there might be benefits to reframe that. So, for example, people who take tenure track faculty positions, thinking that it's going to be their dream job and realize, a few years in or maybe even just one year in, that it is absolutely not a place that I want to be or stay or will thrive. Is that a wrong decision? It was a decision made based on certain information at a certain time. Now you've gathered additional experience, data and evidence. And if you can be true to yourself and say, okay, this isn't this isn't the right fit for me. That's just one example.

Santoshi: Yeah, that is so true. That is really, really true. And also, I think, like, I mean, you do learn something out of every decision that you make, right?

Isabeau: Absolutely right. Yes, you do. And then the key is then to apply that.

Santoshi: Yeah. I think that is really important. To acknowledge it and to apply it. Okay. It didn't work out in this position, but maybe the same skills that you have learned works up from another position. And it's never something wrong, as you said.

Isabeau: Yeah.

Santoshi: So I would also like to ask you about: what do you think that these should be the most important things or the qualities that you would like to share with a PhD candidate, while actually, close to finishing the PhD?

Isabeau: Academia, as you know, because you and I have both spent and your listeners have spent a fair bit of time here. It's not really a culture that builds us up, right? We are taught to be critical and we extend that to our research, our work, and often to ourselves. And so it can be quite easy to lose touch with the fact that you have so much to offer. It's so many skills, so many qualities, so much experience. And so I would say to anyone who's, you know, sort of nearing the completion and thinking about putting themselves on the job market is really to ground yourself in that. And there are many tools for looking at your skills and your strengths. And we've already addressed that, too, to a point. There's also, at least where I have spent most of my working life, this really strong narrative of getting a position on the tenure track is what success is, in academia. And there are so many other measures of success, both career wise and otherwise. And so determining what your own measures of success, I think is a really important piece of that. So when I did my PhD, I had no intention of pursuing a position on the tenure track. So that wasn't even one of my metrics. So really getting to know what success means for you? And I know that's a very overused statement, but it goes back to the values, goes back to the strengths, what's important to you. And then, of course, if you are lucky enough on your campus to have resources that you can access, you know, a career center or professional development opportunities, then by all means, I mean, these things, if you're paying for them outside, are often amount to hundreds of dollars, if not a few thousand dollars, so take advantage of it. To the extent that you can. And just know also that career exploration is ongoing. We can't figure it out. Figure it out. It's done. And then, you know, we're on our path. I think it is just an ongoing process. So you'll figure something out and then you'll figure it out again a bit later and look different.

Santoshi: Yeah, that is again, another truth that you said, career exploration goes on and on and on.

Isabeau: It really does. 

Santoshi: It's never ending.

Isabeau: And that's why I love the work that you're doing, here on this podcast, which, you know, features so many pieces of that, stories as well as strategies.

Santoshi: Yeah. Thanks for bringing that back. Yes. We are trying to bring all of these stories from different PhDs and as this episode is a tips and tricks episode so that, you know, people actually learn from other people. It's also another way of networking that is linked to people's stories.

Isabeau: Yeah, absolutely true.

Santoshi: And since you have time and again in this podcast, you have said about the strength tools and these values. So I can imagine that not many people actually understand what their strengths are. They think that this is their strength. Like, yes, you are in research. Obviously research is your strength, but not really. There are also other strengths that exist and sometimes I think it's also fascinating to find that what you thought is your strength is actually not your strength. So can you share some resources that we can share with our listeners? So we can maybe, if you can talk about some tools or resources, we can also post them on our webpage, on our YouTube channel.

Isabeau: Yeah. So I will share with you four different resources that you can put in the show notes. But I'll speak to one specifically in this conversation, because it's the one that I know the best. So this one is paid, and the other ones I'll share with you are all, all free tools. And the one that I'm most familiar with because I'm certified in it, is the Clifton Strengths Assessment, which used to go by the name Strengthsfinder. And I really like this one because there is extensive research done on it. They pull from people across the globe and I do appreciate that piece of it. And so that is a tool. But the tool is pretty much useless unless you do something with it. So many people take these assessments. It ends up as a file on their computer or maybe, you know, perhaps they print it out. And then never to look at it again, so the value of these is in taking the information and then thinking, how does this apply to me? And so that is work that you can do alone with, you know, with a friend, with a coach. But it's to think, what does this mean in terms of my own career satisfaction, in terms of my day to day, what I enjoy doing, what are the tasks that light me up, which are the ones that drain me? Because as you pointed out, you may have things that you realize you're good at, but maybe you don't want to do those things. So that's one category. But the strengths are the themes, as they call it, the Clifton strengths, it's different. It's more about how do you approach it, how do you show up in anything that you do? What are some of the ways that are just bigger than you? This is who you are, regardless of the situation. So it's not about, you know, having good Excel spreadsheet skills, for example. So yeah, we'll definitely put those in the show notes.

Santoshi: Yeah. Thanks. I think this would be very useful. And I think as Isabeau pointed out, it's not just something that you do once and just leave it on your computer, but actually implement it in your life, understand what it means for you and how you can, how you can make it better and how you can work with them.

Isabeau: And similarly with the values, there is a resource that I will also share and even that. So you know, let's say that you identified that community, for example, is one of your values. But what does that mean to you? So the activity sheet that I developed asks you to define what that means. And so it becomes really personal to you and a way that you can use that and guide your decisions, as we talked about earlier. 

Santoshi: That is something that people should think about. So, listeners, please make notes, and please look at our show notes and find these three and the Clifton strength assessment tools. And I think it would be very useful already. I mean, I don't think I did ask this question following the question for the people who are going to finish their PhD. But I think it's not just people who are finishing their PhD. I think you need them from the starting point.

Isabeau: Agree. Because even in conversations with your supervisor, knowing what's important, what do you need from them? What do you need from your committee? What do you need from your PhD experience? Because we know there's a lot involved in terms of, you might sit on committees, there might be other work that you're doing alongside doing your PhD.

So getting a sense of what it is that will make this a good or better experience for you, I think is really important because it is a really big investment that you're making when doing the graduate studies. 

Santoshi: Yeah, you're right. During my first question, you also touched upon networking strategies and you said you're a proponent for networking strategies. And we have also also discussed how easy it is to network. But I do think that people actually still miss out on this point of how important it is to network. And I mean, people just think that if you're just sending connections on LinkedIn and you have like, I don't know, 500 connections, 100 followers or 500 followers, and then it's fine. You know, this is how you build your network, but it's actually not, it's not just how to connect with people, but how to connect with them effectively. Right?

Isabeau: Yes.

Santoshi: And what tips would you give to our listeners about these strategies for networking? First of all, I think we do have to highlight the point about how important networking is, and what are the tips that you would suggest to them.

Isabeau: Okay. Well, I tend to get very enthusiastic about this topic. So I really think this is so important and something that you should be doing all the time, regardless of your career stage, or where you're at in your studies. And I'll go broad and then maybe if there's interest, we can also discuss LinkedIn a little bit more. So first things first.

First, you need to be doing it. I think that there is no question. And you need to do it in a way that's right for you. What might work for you may not work for me. So some of the things that I suggest to people is that you join a committee. You join a committee that could be something outside of academia. It could be within academia. It doesn't matter something that you care about, not something that you're doing because you think you have to. And we all have things that we care about. And the reason that's so important is because then you show up as someone who's enthusiastic, who's committed, who has ideas, because to just join a committee and sort of fade into the background is really not the point. What you want to be able to do is help establish yourself as a person who is resourceful, reliable, somebody that others would feel comfortable saying “Oh, you want help with that?  I know Santoshi does something in that area”, right. So they can speak with you with that sense of trust. So that that is the piece around, and of course, this is always volunteer work. And then the other piece related to that is, of course, to volunteer with other people. So sometimes we can do volunteer work that involves just work at our computer. But I don't think that, if I had to pick between the two, I would say volunteer in a way that gets you interacting with others.

And the other one, of course, we all are within disciplines and have professional associations, so that might be a really natural place if you're wanting to choose something within your disciplinary area is to join a professional association and get involved. There's no point in just being a member and not doing nothing but, you know, showing up at events. Again back to the point of getting actively involved, because you want to have that consistency of interactions where you are able to build relationships with others. And, then there's so many opportunities with conferences as well. I would sometimes contact certain presenters ahead of time, whose work I loved and either request a one on one meeting, take them out for coffee. And, even if that didn't work out, we had established a connection and I could say something about how much I appreciated their work. And then of course there's LinkedIn.

Santoshi: You know, we all know LinkedIn is there for networking, for sure. But I think people have forgotten the other ways of networking, as I said. And I think like COVID has really made us forget how to interact in the physical world, but more in the digital world. But it's also good for, as a reminder of what other things that you can do, which also helps the networking. And as you pointed out very correctly, there's no point being in a committee and not doing anything or being, or just fading away and writing this in your CV. And I think it speaks also for the same, for the assessment test as well. Right. So yeah, there's no point taking the assessment if you're not going to do anything about it. There's a theme here, right?

Isabeau: Yeah.

Santoshi: We have a theme going on. Since we did touch upon networking, I also know like, you know, we have also young listeners that probably just started the PhDs who probably do not know the importance of networking. So I mean, I should have covered this first and then go to the strategies, but maybe you can shed some light on why we should network. How is it going to help our career, our professional, personal life?

Isabeau: Yeah. So the networking, I think one of the key principles there is that it's a give and take. It is not about getting, it is about giving. And then when you have a request, you have a community of people who are eager and willing to support you. So if we take the committee work, for example. Sure, in the back of your mind, or maybe not even in the back of your mind, the intention is to build your network so that you may, one day, draw upon them. But in the time that it takes to do that and actively participate, you're giving a lot, right? You're giving of yourself. And without a doubt, people are going to want to refer to someone, they, I keep using this, “know, trust and like”, over someone that they don't. And so the benefit is I mean, I can only just speak so glowingly about the impact that it has had for me in various areas of my life, both personal and professional. And so sometimes people think it's an icky thing because they're only thinking about the time they might need to make your request. But I would suggest people reframe that. Think about building a community, maybe you even replace that right? So it's building a community, where you're an active and engaged participant and citizen of that community, and it's a real exchange over time.

Santoshi: What I really like is what you mentioned. It's not about getting, it's about giving. And I think people, when you say “Oh, you have to network”, they just think, “Oh, you have to network to get a job”. But that's not true.

Isabeau: No, it isn't just about getting it correct. It's not just about getting a job. It's really building relationships over time that will bring back so much to you, and also are just such a wonderful opportunity to, to give and share on your behalf.

Santoshi: I mean, since I also mentioned jobs now, and it has listeners please do not mistake it, because networking is not about finding or asking someone for a job. But since Isabeau is here, I would really like to pick her brain on job searching strategy. So what are some tips that you can give our listeners for job searching strategies?

Isabeau: Yes, absolutely. This piece around, even though we said, you know, framing networking as giving, what can I give? And then also so that you can build relationships. I would say that a very important job related strategy is to be an active member of your professional community. And that can look like a whole bunch of different things.

Another strategy I would say is, you need to be the one to take initiative. It would be so wonderful if people could just come. Knocking on our doors and, you know, sending us emails, offering us work or opportunities. And this is really, really not so. And so you need to be able to think strategically about where you're putting your energy. You plan and take the initiative and that can be really, really difficult for some people, especially if you have that mindset of like “Oh, I have nothing to offer” or “No, they don't want me” or “They're experts” and what do I know, that you really need to be able to put aside and focus back to the the strengths that you have, the skills that you've built up, everything that you have to offer. And if you can't do that yourself, perhaps you enlist some friends to help you remember. And take the initiative. And that could be taking the initiative into looking for alternative careers. Or how am I going to finish my dissertation? What support do I need? What committees do I want to join? Whatever it might be that you're particularly, you know, focused on at this time. We've already talked about, you know, another strategy, knowing your strengths and values and ensuring alignment.

And then back to this piece around reflecting on what your own metrics for success are, because that too will help you and guide you in the appropriate direction. So if, for example, you know that you don't want a tenure track position, but you're getting lots of messages. You know, within your supervisors, your committee members that you should be applying and “Oh, did you see this?” And perhaps you should join that, but if you know that that's not what you want, for example, well, then you're more clearly able to to put that aside and stay true to yourself. So knowing what your own metrics for success are will help with your own career decision making.

So those are some of the, you know, the key pieces, the networking, the initiative, the strengths and values, and then defining your own metrics for success.

Santoshi: Yeah, that was very well put. And what, what you said in the last, what really was important for me and I think also for the listeners is like, it's not that you always have to, you definitely have to know what you want. But I think it's also very useful to know what you don't want.

Isabeau: Yes, very true.

Santoshi: I think people really underestimate that and think, oh yeah, I know that I don't want to do this, but I don't know what else to do. But I think that's such a big step because there's so many people who don't know what they don't want to do.

Isabeau: That's such a good point. I'm really glad you raised that. Yeah. And maybe you only know a piece of what you want or of what you don't want. Perhaps you don't want to move out of the location where you live because you have young children and your mother and father live nearby. And you need the support, right? Like there are so many things that can play into our decisions.

Santoshi: And I think this again intertwines everything that we spoke about because again, this is about your values, right? So your values are family, in this context that we are speaking about. So it is really, so many people say that they don't know what their values are. They actually know. It's just that you don't think about it in a sense that it is your value. So yes. And also because I was mentioning about intertwining, I was also thinking about the job searching strategy and networking that we spoke about because you said, you know, it would be very nice to have this someone knocking on our door and saying “Hey, this is a job for you. Would you like to come?” But don't you think that it also something that actually could happen if you network?

Isabeau: Yes, absolutely. It can happen. It will happen. I'm confident of it. And part of it is your responsibility to say, you don't have to say it in these words, but to communicate either your interest in having a job or in working for a particular organization or being open. And it's also about communicating what your areas of interest are, because I think for many academics, our communication isn't always that clear. And so people may not really have a sense of what you do, “Oh, she does something to do with giraffes”, right? Like they may not be able to see what, what that actually means in terms of work. And so this is where I think that, for example, LinkedIn is really a terrific platform to be able to post about what you care about, what it means in terms of, you know, real life application, which is different than how that communication shows up in your dissertation or in peer review publication. So yeah, I agree.

Santoshi: So since we're very close to the end, but I would still want to pick brains again for something that you mentioned before about, you know, if you have a career center close by, use it. If you have career coaches, go for it. Ask for help. So why is it so important to use these specific tools?

Isabeau: Yeah, I think we can be reflective. We are incredibly capable, but we also are limited when we're just relying on our own self and our own perception, and the benefit of having an outside source, whether that is a career coach, a career center, a friend, perhaps an accountability group, whatever it may be, is the collective wisdom, the ability to see things from a different perspective, the resources that people with expertize have. So again, whether it's a career center or career coach, I have found when I've availed of those which I do very, very frequently. Is that I can move forward so much more smoothly, efficiently and in a way that will get me closer to my goals and with more ease and so, sure, you could struggle or not struggle, you know, kind of wrestle with these things on your own. And I'm confident that you will get to the result you want over time. But the benefits I've seen of being able to avail of outside support and expertise is, is really, really impactful in a positive way.

Santoshi: Yeah, that is correct. Because I also think like, if you have the opportunity to use this help, grab them.

Isabeau: Agree. I agree. Yeah. And if you don't have the opportunity, there is so much available also for free, publicly. There are phenomenal podcasts. Of course, there are people who write, you know, blog posts and you'll find the people who resonate with you, and you can follow them. So even if you're in a place, an institution where there isn't an established career center, where perhaps you don't have the finances for a career coach, look around. You can be creative and resourceful.

Santoshi: Thanks for sharing this because I think this is also something really important for people who don't have these resources to reach out. I think that that was really an important thing that you mentioned here. So, Isabeau, I think this was a wonderful, wonderful podcast recording. I am very, very sure that our listeners will probably listen to this the second or the third time, write down some notes to understand what we spoke about, because it has so many depths and layers to everything that we spoke about. And I think it will really help them with their career, with their personal choices in life. But before we finish, I would just like to ask you: can you give some three tips for our listeners? Three quick tips.

Isabeau: Okay, so I'm not going to give any new tips. I'm going to reiterate some things that we've talked about in this conversation, because I really want to make sure that your listeners take away these important points. So number one tip is network. Build that into your career strategy and intend to do that for the remainder of your career because it will always, always serve you and really think about this as building relationships and a give and take. The second strategy is you must take the initiative. You must be able to strategize and think about what's important to you and then make decisions about how to move forward with those pieces. And then the third strategy is the one around knowing your strengths and values and using that information as you are on your career journey. So accessing that and really linking it to what is going to be meaningful and fulfilling for me, what is it that I need to know in order to make the next decision and really grounding yourself in your strengths and your values. I'll leave it at that.

Santoshi: Thank you Isabeau, I think you kind of summarized, but also gave new tips to our listeners. But again, listeners, you, me, everyone, we can hear these tips, but we do have to work on them on our own. And as Isabeau suggested, these are quick tips. But yeah, probably not so quick to implement. So we really need to work on that. And I would really like to take the opportunity here again to thank you, Isabeau, for such a wonderful episode of career stories and all the best in your life and stay connected.

Isabeau: Thank you so much Santoshi, and thank you to all your listeners for their interest.

Santoshi: Okay, listeners, thank you for listening to another episode of Career Stories. Meet you again for the next one. Have a nice day.